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Gretchen Joanna's avatar

I haven't read Fr. John's books, but your article here has given me more reason to. It is marvelous the way engaging with one writer can pull everything together that you've been learning your whole life, from books and people and experiences, and add that last piece of a puzzle. I am so thankful for people who are able to do that for me.

The vision of gender that Patitsas puts forth is deep and joyful, and a little hard to digest intellectually -- but it resonates strongly with what I've learned by experience. It's transcendent! Which of course we would expect God's plan for us to be. Praise His holy Name. But as with the beautiful image of marriage set forth in the Bible, we humans rarely achieve it. Just to have the chance to aim for it and pray toward it is a precious gift. I've recently become more thankful (and less indignant!) for many people and experiences I've known over the decades. Maybe I will tell you sometime how that happened.

Thank you so much for doing the prayerful work of reading, thinking and writing, to the glory of God. May God give you strength and joy and peace.

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Dana Ames's avatar

I haven't read the books, but my godmother has and really likes them. I've heard Fr John's podcasts now and then, and I think his take in general is a good broad-based explanation of how things have shaken out over the centuries.

You'll have to invite me over again to hear my complete spiel. Let me try to be brief - ha ha :)

I'm not sure if first wave feminism (the 19th century variety) was about indignation - might have been, I just haven't studied it deeply. From what I understand, it came out of the desire for women to not be left completely helpless economically, should their husbands desert them or drink up their (the men's) wages, in a time when industrialization was taking over and few women had the skills or ability to support themselves via spinning/weaving/other home-based manufacturing anymore. (See Kingsnorth on the enclosure laws and Luddites in his "Machine" series, and Mary Harrington's writing.) The push for enfranchisement was the means by which (hopefully) women's votes would shift social/economic policy in their favor: they could own property, have custody of children, etc. It's not that (at least most of them) viewed all men as evil and/or unnecessary; they just wanted to be able to have the means to survive and care for themselves and their children if they happened to marry an unreliable, irresponsible one (or if the man died). Second-wave feminism (Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, et al) was definitely fueled by indignation, and I think part of that was driven not only by bad attitudes of (some/many) men, but also the Pill coming on the scene, and the relatively full industrialization of the economy. Yup, I was young when that was going on, but I do remember lots of indignation for sure.

In terms of church, I couldn't have become Orthodox (and I would have been really, really sad about that!!!) if there was any indication that *theologically* women were viewed as less than human. In much of Evangelicalism, that is the case (with notable exceptions on the part of a minority of MEN in those sectors of it who do not want to view women that way!) because 1) they trust only a literalist interpretation of the Bible ("what the Bible means to me" or what makes sense via their favorite teacher/s), 2) they do not trust the extra-scriptural witness of the ancient Church, 3) they do not trust any secular academic research into the social conditions of the 1st century (and very little Evangelical academic study) and 4) they have NO understanding of typology - along with only a VERY superficial understanding of the Holy Trinity, ecclesiology and the Incarnation. Having spent +30 years as an Evangelical, I was quite familiar with the fallout from that bad/non-existent theology, and I studied my Bible and the work of reasonable Evangelical academics very carefully for several years to be able to come to what I knew was the truth about the full humanity of females in Scripture and in God's heart. When I got there, it felt like I had broken the surface of a vast ocean and could finally breathe.

As an Orthodox Inquirer, I was "waiting for the other shoe to fall" - after all, isn't Orthodoxy (big C) Conservative and (big T) Traditional regarding men and women? But the other shoe never fell. And the longer I hung around, the more I saw that bad treatment of women (especially in "the old country") was because of the sinfulness of human beings, not because it was justified by Orthodox theology/theological anthropology - quite the opposite.

I did run into the St Phoebe Center early on. I considered what they had to say. In the end, I decided they were misguided. Yes, there are some priests and bishops who see their office in terms of power and authority. Those clerics clearly do not understand (big time) what it is they have been called to. The answer is to let God deal with them, not to maneuver women into "positions of power" - that kind of action simply continues the delusion, and justifies the supposed solution with secularist logic. Yes, repentance and humility really are the keys to all of it.

Thanks for your clearly articulated thoughts, dear Catie. Glad you have the time to be able to do this.

Dana

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